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Fast vs Slow
- Thread starter Rdslvr04
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"better" is not the word I would use.
Riding a bike to it's limits is the goal, and that is easier to do on a smaller/cheaper bike.
It also depends on what your goal is. Many are quite happy riding whatever bike at it's mid level because they are comfortable with that.
I find riding whatever to be fun, and finding the limit (if I can) is part of the fun, no mater what size.
So maybe riding a small bike to its limits is funner (yeah, I know, not a word, but you know what it means) than riding a large bike to mediocrity, even if that mediocrity is faster than the small bike.
Riding a bike to it's limits is the goal, and that is easier to do on a smaller/cheaper bike.
It also depends on what your goal is. Many are quite happy riding whatever bike at it's mid level because they are comfortable with that.
I find riding whatever to be fun, and finding the limit (if I can) is part of the fun, no mater what size.
So maybe riding a small bike to its limits is funner (yeah, I know, not a word, but you know what it means) than riding a large bike to mediocrity, even if that mediocrity is faster than the small bike.
I'll ride my fast bike slow. Pick the right one and it's enjoyable at many speeds. I prefer not to be limited on what roads I can take, so fast is preferable, up to a point. I like predictable and controllable power.
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Kilroy
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I'm 90% a slow bike fast guy, but there's a limit of course. I don't particularly enjoy a 250 on a highway stretch, the ol arthritis starts to get me. Give me low revs at 70 and I'll ride whatever really. The most fun I've ever had was ripping around on a 790 triumph. It wasn't fast, but it was fast enough and fun to rip around.
Rdslvr04
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Just asking b/c I think there is something dynamically Zen when you’re riding that razor’s edge between feeling the full power and speed of a fast bike and gliding effortlessly through the twisties because of its untapped performance potential.
OldTLSDoug
Forum Supporter
I like both. For example, the 890 Duke R, while not a slow bike, is almost magical in that it can turn in amazing ways. The brakes are monstrous and it is very light. So flogging her is great fun. Also, when I had the SR500, it was great fun to keep up with faster bikes because you had to work so hard to stay with them. Conversely, the 1290 Super Duke R EVO is amazing fun, you can spank it hard in places that the 890 falls flat on, but you also can just putt along and enjoy the scenery on both. I went pretty well on my KTM 525 SMR and did some amazing stuff, sliding front and rear, lifting the rear into corners, learned a lot on that bike. Of course, I went faster on my RC8R and my Gixxer 750. So I would say, "Both".
Little bikes are fun, to a point. I enjoy my LC8 motors much more than in line 4's. I have been a junkie for sporting V-twins since my Suzuki TL1000R/S days. Nothing pulls like that Super Duke and my almost favorite bike of all time is my 990 Super Duke.
So, that is my best non-answer. But, slow bike fast and fast bike fast are both great.
Little bikes are fun, to a point. I enjoy my LC8 motors much more than in line 4's. I have been a junkie for sporting V-twins since my Suzuki TL1000R/S days. Nothing pulls like that Super Duke and my almost favorite bike of all time is my 990 Super Duke.
So, that is my best non-answer. But, slow bike fast and fast bike fast are both great.
For me it totally depends. On the pavement, I would 100% agree that riding a slow bike to within its limits is way more fun that riding a top of the line, very capable bike to 15% of its limits. For example, I LOVE riding my KLR around town on the pavement. Coming to a stop, just mashing on the rear brake and sliding sideways to a stop sign, then giving it the beans while leaned over and turning corners putting all 13hps down and getting up to a brisk 45mph in no time flat.
But in the dirt, I'd much rather have my very fast and very capable 300 2-stroke with top of the line suspension and awesome brakes. With that bike I can tell you that other than a dirt road here and there, I wouldn't have actually known that it had 4th through 6th gears because I've never used them in the trails. All day long though, I'd rather be on that bike than the KLR if I'm riding off road though.
But in the dirt, I'd much rather have my very fast and very capable 300 2-stroke with top of the line suspension and awesome brakes. With that bike I can tell you that other than a dirt road here and there, I wouldn't have actually known that it had 4th through 6th gears because I've never used them in the trails. All day long though, I'd rather be on that bike than the KLR if I'm riding off road though.
Back when we lived in Leeds, AL, we were just a few minutes from the twisties of Hwy 25. I had a Gen I FZ1, and the wife had a Ninja 250. She dropped it once and never rode again... The FZ1 was a hoot through the curves, and always had more power on tap. However, there is a huge difference in how you attack corners on a 1 liter bike and a tiny 250. I remember a video of a guy on a baby ninja at Laguna Seca. The big bikes would rip past on the straights, and he would rip past in the curves.
I would give the fast bike slow the edge, but on the Ninja, you just blast the curves - it turned like a dirt bike. just point and go. It was a hoot! get up to speed and never slow down much for the curves.
On the FZ1, curves are a more disciplined process. I never got close to wringing out the FZ1 to it's potential, but I would still give it the edge. The next (and current) bike was a Gen II FZ1.
I would give the fast bike slow the edge, but on the Ninja, you just blast the curves - it turned like a dirt bike. just point and go. It was a hoot! get up to speed and never slow down much for the curves.
On the FZ1, curves are a more disciplined process. I never got close to wringing out the FZ1 to it's potential, but I would still give it the edge. The next (and current) bike was a Gen II FZ1.
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ntklr650
Matt6:34
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I agree with @blupupher riding a bike to it's limits is key. You just have to have a relatively safe place to do that and it's much harder to find a safe place to ride a fast bike to it's limit. It also costs a lot more typically. I'll still say a Gen 1 KLR can corner with the best of them (at it's speed) in the Twisties. Slow bike fast I guess.
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I think location plays a part in that.
Most of us do not have regular access to a place where we can truly (and safely) push most street bikes anywhere near their limit.
On the street, anything over probably a 500 cc bike, most are not safely/legally able to find the limit of the bike (but probably find the limit of the rider).
You take a street only rider that thinks they are good and put them on a track and they will have their eyes opened and how they are not as good as they thought.
I keep wanting to do a track day just to have that experience.
Dirt is a little different because there are many more places to really push the limits of the bikes and their riders.
Last year I bought my W800 Cafe. At 46 rwhp it’s the way less than my ‘12 Ninja 1000 was (and weighs near as much 
). But stretching it to it’s limits (especially after changing out the OEM Dunlop K300 GP tires, too much retro, yikes!) is like hitting a bullseye with a .22, not as much bang but it still gets me grinning.
). But stretching it to it’s limits (especially after changing out the OEM Dunlop K300 GP tires, too much retro, yikes!) is like hitting a bullseye with a .22, not as much bang but it still gets me grinning.
Simmons1
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Back in the day when I had fast bikes for their time like my ZX11, it was way to easy to go too fast and do stupid things.
In my old age I don't need a fast bike. I am now content with a riding a slow bike fast.
In my old age I don't need a fast bike. I am now content with a riding a slow bike fast.
The problem with riding a motorcycle to the limit is that there is no room for unexpected problems. One reason I am not a fan of Harley's is that it is easy to use up all available lean angle or hit the brake input maximum and then there are few options as the washing machine that fell out of the truck in front of you appears in your line of sight just past the apex.
I would rather ride something that can lean over 50+ degrees, has giant Brembos and grippy tires and only use 50% of it's total capabilities 99.999% of the time leaving room for the 0.001% to be handled with ease. A lot of major accidents involving motorcycles are a result of the rider running out of options; either from their vehicles' limitations or from shortfalls in their mental emergency play book.
I would rather ride something that can lean over 50+ degrees, has giant Brembos and grippy tires and only use 50% of it's total capabilities 99.999% of the time leaving room for the 0.001% to be handled with ease. A lot of major accidents involving motorcycles are a result of the rider running out of options; either from their vehicles' limitations or from shortfalls in their mental emergency play book.
It's far less about riding near the bike's limit, as it is about riding near the rider's limit. Let's face it... a lot of riders are nowhere near talented enough to ride a modern litersport anywhere close to its limits. You can try to ride one "slow" but grab that throttle a bit too much at the wrong time, and you are liable to end up in the weeds. Electronic nannies help to some extend, but instant 200+HP on tap within a 1/2 inch twist of the wrist can be awfully intimidating.
With a more moderately powered - or "slow" - bike, the average rider might feel more comfortable attempting to ride spiritly, knowing the bike responds gentler when pushed and so is less likely to bite. Less anxiety = more relaxed rider = less survival instinct = more confidence = easier to explore his/her limits = more fun overall.
But, of course, for guys that can competently take a fast bike to its limits, a slow bike would bore them to tears.
With a more moderately powered - or "slow" - bike, the average rider might feel more comfortable attempting to ride spiritly, knowing the bike responds gentler when pushed and so is less likely to bite. Less anxiety = more relaxed rider = less survival instinct = more confidence = easier to explore his/her limits = more fun overall.
But, of course, for guys that can competently take a fast bike to its limits, a slow bike would bore them to tears.
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after popping a radiator ending a two wheeled adventure at the dragon I climbed in the ford windstar and took it down the dragon, engine screaming and brakes smoking.
laughing like a mad man having the most fun ever at the dragon.
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I have also taken my G310GS down the dragon (both the paved and the dirt one) going from wide open to hard on the brake and back wide open, over and over passing bikes with 4 times its displacement, and that was a lot of fun also.
Jeff S
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That's exactly it! And for non-dirt bikes, that means track days. This allows for "fast bikes fast" and for anyone yet to experience a track day - go do it. It's amazing, and so much easier to do than it seemed from the outside. Folks are there on all sorts of bikes, not just "real" track bikes. GS's, Pan Am, Harley's, super moto, whatever..
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During my roadracing career, I rode bikes of all sizes, even down to 50cc bikes on go-kart tracks. I smiled more on the smaller bikes. One internet defination of elation is "a feeling of Joy and pride. My sence of elation was higher on the faster bikes, if they handled well.
I like riding my slow bike slow. Truth is, it's a lot more fun to ride my scooter if I am limited to 30-40mph speed limit neighborhood roads littered with stop signs and no curves than it is either of my big bikes. But riding the scooter flat out on the highway is no fun, but my Triumph is effortless and enjoyable on any highway trip.
I just think different motorcycles have different sweet spots for their use, it's not nearly as simple as "slow bike fast" vs. "fast bike slow". My Triumph is most comfortable at any speed but I still pick the Vespa first for short errand type trips. My Suzuki is way better over rough roads and makes it feel like you are in a race no matter where or how you are riding just because it's like motorized ADHD. The reason the Suzuki is better on, say, Cow Creek Rd., is not because it's a "slow bike" being ridden "fast", but because it's a lighter, more flickable bike being manhandled over the windiest rough road in TX where 30mph feels like the limit no matter what you are on, and a 100lb heavier Triumph with harder suspension is just a chore on the same road. The Vespa can do Lime Creek Rd. but it can't maintain more than 20mph up some of the hills which is no fun, no matter how good it is at flicking through all of those 15mph curves.
That said, I think a track day would be a lot more fun on the Suzuki because I'm less likely to get killed or destroy a hard to replace, beautiful motorcycle. But a track day would be a snoozer on my Vespa; I'm sure at COTA I could pin the throttle and keep it there on the entire course. I think you just want the right bike for the purpose.
I just think different motorcycles have different sweet spots for their use, it's not nearly as simple as "slow bike fast" vs. "fast bike slow". My Triumph is most comfortable at any speed but I still pick the Vespa first for short errand type trips. My Suzuki is way better over rough roads and makes it feel like you are in a race no matter where or how you are riding just because it's like motorized ADHD. The reason the Suzuki is better on, say, Cow Creek Rd., is not because it's a "slow bike" being ridden "fast", but because it's a lighter, more flickable bike being manhandled over the windiest rough road in TX where 30mph feels like the limit no matter what you are on, and a 100lb heavier Triumph with harder suspension is just a chore on the same road. The Vespa can do Lime Creek Rd. but it can't maintain more than 20mph up some of the hills which is no fun, no matter how good it is at flicking through all of those 15mph curves.
That said, I think a track day would be a lot more fun on the Suzuki because I'm less likely to get killed or destroy a hard to replace, beautiful motorcycle. But a track day would be a snoozer on my Vespa; I'm sure at COTA I could pin the throttle and keep it there on the entire course. I think you just want the right bike for the purpose.
Rdslvr04
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While I really loved my YZ250J supermoto and could potentially push it to its limits it also suffered, in my view, from the limits of all small displacement motorcycle:
a. The need for constant shifting in order to properly utilize its power band.
b. The need for a heightened level of concentration in order to not overwhelm or push it past its limits. Crashing at 20 mph still hurts.
A bigger displacement/“faster” bike because of its greater/higher performance limit, in my view, especially when ridden slow allows for
a. A more enjoyable relaxed ride when ridden at reasonable (legal) road speeds,
b. A less taxing and more fluid ride especially when one finds that sweet spot where only mid range power is used.
c. A less detached/broken ridding experience for both you and your potential pillion b/c of much less shifting/fewer gear changes.
a. The need for constant shifting in order to properly utilize its power band.
b. The need for a heightened level of concentration in order to not overwhelm or push it past its limits. Crashing at 20 mph still hurts.
A bigger displacement/“faster” bike because of its greater/higher performance limit, in my view, especially when ridden slow allows for
a. A more enjoyable relaxed ride when ridden at reasonable (legal) road speeds,
b. A less taxing and more fluid ride especially when one finds that sweet spot where only mid range power is used.
c. A less detached/broken ridding experience for both you and your potential pillion b/c of much less shifting/fewer gear changes.
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OldTLSDoug
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The YZ250J also has really crappy tires, but with air in them, she is pretty flickable and they grip decently. She is let down a bit by the crappy drum breaks, but they get 'er done. I think the Supermotard is the best way to learn to go fast, and then the bigger stuff is easier.
Maybe a definition of "fast" is in order?
To me, fast is when it feels fast to me. If I'm riding the FZ1 fast, it's because it feels fast.... that's a personal thing. However, when I'm pushing MY limits, I always know that the bike is more capable than my comfort zone, so if need be, I can always lean off a bit more, a bit more bar input, and it will graciously abide. The power comes on hard around 9000 rpm... pretty strong at 7000, but I don't see those numbers on the tach often. However, to get that big grin on my face, I can still give it a twist, even at lower rpms. For the bike, I'm riding slow, even if it feels fast to me. Margin is nice.
I figure that none of the 100 people in the world have posted up that can wring an R1 out to it's limit.... but a lot of people can still ride them fast.
To me, fast is when it feels fast to me. If I'm riding the FZ1 fast, it's because it feels fast.... that's a personal thing. However, when I'm pushing MY limits, I always know that the bike is more capable than my comfort zone, so if need be, I can always lean off a bit more, a bit more bar input, and it will graciously abide. The power comes on hard around 9000 rpm... pretty strong at 7000, but I don't see those numbers on the tach often. However, to get that big grin on my face, I can still give it a twist, even at lower rpms. For the bike, I'm riding slow, even if it feels fast to me. Margin is nice.
I figure that none of the 100 people in the world have posted up that can wring an R1 out to it's limit.... but a lot of people can still ride them fast.