Larry_77084 said:
I live my life the same as any real Christian would, but I do it because it's the right thing to do, not under the threat of going to ****. Should there be a judgement day and they judge I think I would be OK. If it turns out I'm wrong, Oh well, but that's my choice. I don't need a lecture!
Larry, this is not an argument to convince you that you are wrong and need to believe. It is just a general response to your comment, which is a common sentiment in non believers. I would not presume to lecture an unbeliever because I was once an unbeliever as well, and nothing turned me off faster than some self righteous believer trying to cram his/her view of God down my throat
I don't do the right thing because of a fear of eternal condemnation either
I did not choose to believe because of a fear of eternal condemnation. After all, for the fear of condemnation to matter, you first have to believe there is a Judge to condemn. For me though, the issue of "doing the right thing" or following some list of rules is not even a consideration. It is about a personal relationship. If that relationship is right, everything else just sort of flows from it naturally. I personally do not believe you can argue anyone into believing. I could tell you all about my relationship, but you'd never really understand it until you experienced it for yourself. This is why God cannot be forced on people. If both parties to a relationship are not willing, then there can be no intimacy, only coercion.
Pain and suffering is obviously a major issue in this world. It would seem there are very few, if any, people in this world that will be exempt from pain and suffering. This is a big part of why we have this prayer request section. However, there is that unavoidable question of how could a good and loving God allow such pain and suffering? Some people argue that it is God allowing for the free will of mankind to work itself out in this world. Some would argue that if there is a God that is all knowing, there can be no free will since He already knows everything you will decide before you have even decided it.
This is something I wrote in a recent discussion I was having with someone else on a different forum regarding free will and the presence of pain and suffering in the world as proof that a good and loving God does not exist.
Tourmeister said:
If there is no God, then there is nothing but absolute determinism. All effects are the results of previous causes, ad infinitum. Once again, there can be no free will. Quite the pickle...
If there is no God, then pain, suffering, and evil are illusions. Without a basis for moral law, how can anything be classified as right, wrong, good, or evil? How can one argue that the pain and suffering of someone is undeserved or unjust? Such an argument presupposes an eternal, external and independent basis for morality. Using the presence of pain, suffering and evil as an argument against God is illogical because such things could not truly exist without God. That pretty much every human alive believes there are things like evil, pain, suffering and injustice would seem to argue in favor of God and the existence of free will. If there were no free will, there would be no way to rebel against God to create all the evil, pain, suffering and injustices.
If in fact there is a God as the Bible sets forth, then a perfect Judge, in possession of the Truth regarding all aspects of all injustices, and with the power to make fully informed decisions regarding the dispensing of justice awaits us all. For a believer, pain and suffering is just a temporary thing to be endured in light of the knowledge that all things will be set right in the end. It does not mean a believer goes looking for it, but it does mean that a believer can see past it.
Pain and suffering seen in the secular sense is unjust because there can never be satisfaction for wrongs once committed. Once we die, that is the end. Unless of course one believes in Karma and reincarnation, which begs the question of who is it that keeps track of our Karma, that determines what is or is not good/bad Karma, that makes the decision about who or what we come back as in the next life, or when we have finally reached the point where we can get off the merry go round?
Truth cannot abide falsehood. Just as a universe of total darkness cannot keep the smallest light from shining, all the falsehood in the world is powerless against a simple Truth. If our lives are built upon falsehood, then we have reason to fear the Truth if we prefer the falsehood. Yet if we desire to live according to Truth, then there is nothing to fear. It is a question of which way we are going, away from the Truth or towards it? If God is Truth, he does not create fear in people just for jollies. He does it by His very nature as being the essence of Truth. The wise person learns to search for and recognize Truth because a life built on falsehood will shatter on the anvil of Truth. This pain and suffering can be far worse than physical pain and sufferings we might experience.
The last paragraph in particular gets to your point of the threat of condemnation. Condemnation is not hung over unbelievers as a threat by some arbitrary and capricious despot. It is based on the inherent nature of God as the foundation of Truth in the ultimate objective sense. If a person choses not to accept God as Truth, then God has no choice but to separate them from Himself, for as I mentioned in the quote, Truth cannot abide falsehood. Holiness cannot abide unholiness. If people are unwilling to accept God as Truth, He will not force Himself on them and will honor their choice. Whether such condemnation will entail a literal torment of fire and brimstone is up for speculation. However, I can't see how any physical torment could ever be as bad as the torment of
knowing the real Truth and then being apart from it
I can totally respect anyone that is a non-believer. It was a long hard road for me to come to the point where I believed. I never experienced any kind of shazam conversion on the spot. I was quite militantly athiestic and over the years came to believe, being dragged kicking and screaming every step of the way. I challenged everything at every point. Eventually, I reached a point where I could no longer deny what I perceived to be the Truth and I willingly changed my orientation. The faith is strong some days and weak on others. BritishSteele has a point. She says to just pray a prayer. Ironically, even doing that means that you have to allow for the possibility that there might be someone there to answer. All I can say to any unbeliever is seek for yourself. I sincerely believe that if people genuinely look for answers, they are there. No one can do that for you. So I am always willing to answer any questions that I can which are put to me regarding my beliefs and the reasons for them, but I don't feel compelled to force them on others.
Getting back to the pain and suffering. Maybe it is true that God is allowing the results of our combined free wills to work themselves out in this world. Perhaps that is a way for him to show us what the fruits of our own efforts can achieve
For many people, it is the very presence of pain and suffering that brings them to the point in their lives where they a forced to concede that they really don't have all the answers and they really are not in control. This can be the point where they are finally willing to accept the possibility that there might be a God, one that has reached out to us, and to begin their own journey of personal discovery. For others, it is the final point of despair and they may end their lives. I don't go looking for pain and suffering, but I don't run from it either. I see it as an inevitable part of life and when I pray, surely I pray for relief from it, but more importantly, for the grace to deal with it. It will only be for a season.