Collapsed Air Filter - What Exactly Does That Mean?

[happytech]

Well, the shop called this afternoon and said the reason for the sudden woes on my bike was a collapsed air filter.

I've never heard of that - I wouldn't think that this little 400cc thumper would have had that much power.

HISTORY: All of a sudden I was fouling out the plug within a few hundred miles and dumping fuel in to the crankcase. My mileage had cratered and my light throttle drivability was jerky at best. Changed the plug and oil/filter the other day. Took it to the shop last Tuesday and they called today saying that the collapsed air filter was causing all the problems.

PRESENT: So, what exactly is a collapsed air filter and what causes it? No matter how clean the air filter is, the way the air intake is (less than 12" from the road ad pointed down) this filter will start to get filthy within a week (less than 100 miles). Also, I replace the plug just before I took it in to the shop and it's already fouled.

So again, what exactly is a collapsed air filter and what causes it? I know most of you don't have any idea how the air intake system is routed on a Burgman 400, but if there's a way to add some hose, etc. to it and reroute it that should help a lot of my problems.

These paper filters can "unofficially" be cleaned several times over their lifetime and at over $50 a piece I can't be replacing one every six months. A K&N is a royal pain to install but I'm going to try one again.

I would have thought that if the filter was plugging that the O2 sensor would have compensated - maybe the software isn't sophisticated enough to do so.

I'll pick the bike up tomorrow and clean the filter again if I can - if not, then I can get by another day or so until the replacement comes in.

I'm also betting I can clean the plug (either the current one or the previous one) - if not, then another one can be bought up the street.

Now, if this doesn't fix the problem - any suggestions on how to handle it with the service department? I was hoping for my hour of diagnostics they would have done a bit more besides ride it a few minutes and hook up their scanner to it.

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Well, first question is why is a K&N such a pain to install yet the stock one isn't? Every bike I've ever seen that they make a filter for, it is just a direct replacement.

Second, I know I'm horrid on bike maintenance but cleaning/replacing an air filter every 6 months?!?! When I was really putting some mileage down on the Strom (20k+ a year) I would clean the filter once a year and be done with it. Even that seemed like overkill to me.

 

[tshelfer]

To answer your primary question, you need to ask your mechanic what a "collapsed air filter" is. Let him get the old part, show you what it looks like, & show you how it's affecting your airbox.

 

[Crew Chief]

I've seen air filters collapse in air conditioning systems, but I cant say that I've ever seen it in a vehicle. In an AC system it happens when the filter is clogged and the motor is doing everything it can to bring air in. The air filter is sucked in until the fan gets the air it needs. It would account for the symptoms you describe on your bike, but again, I don't think I've ever seen one that dirty on a bike.

 

[happytech]

I'll take a look at it tomorrow when I get it home.

All I know is, for some unknown reason, a lot of road dirt, small gravel, etc. kicks up on the swingarm assembly and a lot of dirt gets in the air filter.

 

[focus frenzy]

I see collapsed filters regularly on the trucks I work on and have seen them on bikes.

it happens when the filter gets so dirty it builds enough vacuum on the clean side to overcome the inherent rigidity of the pleats and the support structure.

they will look squished. some vehicles are more prone to it than others due to where they mount the intake snorkel, and the environment where the vehicle is operated.

the ability of the engine fuel injection system to adjust to the greatly increased restriction depends on its ability to measure actual air flow into the engine. I only know of a couple of motorcycles that actually have a sensor for measuring airflow and the Bergman is not one of them.

the Bergman system uses a O2 sensor to fine tune the fuel delivery but is limited on how much it can adjust.

 

[Moekazi]

I'd like to know if the problem is actually fixed because it sounds like a leaking injector. A collapsed filter wouldn't put fuel in the oil. It sounds like they found something and then stopped looking for problems.

 

[DaveC]

Time to put a snorkel on it,

this ought to stick up behind your helmet, catch a lot of air that way.

 

[happytech]

I'd like to know if the problem is actually fixed because it sounds like a leaking injector. A collapsed filter wouldn't put fuel in the oil. It sounds like they found something and then stopped looking for problems.

True, but with the short drive I have it was probably running so rich that it just happened. Now, how does one tell if they have a leaking injector and what would cause it?

The air filter had been cleaned awhile back (I'd need to check my logs - I keep a DETAILED log of what I do and when - date/mileage).

If the problem doesn't go away in the next few days, it goes back and the credit card folks may be getting a call.

I like this dealership and I feel that of the local (and not so local) ones that they can be trusted - I know of one that I feel can't.

Sometimes mistakes can be made and in the interest of fairness, give someone a chance to correct them before you get nasty.

 

[happytech]

OK - I've done a quick copy and paste of the air intake system from my previous 05 to the current 09.

On the 05 the air was drawn in from the side; on the 09 the air is drawn in from the bottom (less than 12" from the road surface I believe) so all that road junk can get sucked up in a heartbeat.

(On a sidenote, would someone please teach me how to put the pic directly in to the post instead of having to use an attachment?)

Oh yes, someone on another forum suggested a leaking fuel injector - what would cause that and how would you tell? It wouldn't surprise me considering the tank was already pealing when I got the bike (0.5 miles on the odometer) - there was a leak at the top of the tank.

 

[focus frenzy]

the injector works by a electromagnet pulls up a needle like pintle spraying fuel into the intake tract. if some sort of itty bitty debree gets into the seat of the pintle the injector cant close off fully. they will run a bit rich but more importantly when shut off the injector will sit there and drip gas into the intake until the fuel rail runs out.

worse case scenario is you hydraulic the cylinder and bent a rod.

take body work off to point where you can get air box off pretty easy and quick. run the engine and turn off and remove the air box or tube so you can see the injector on the inside of the intake and watch for dripping.

 

[happytech]

Thanks for the injector tip - I'll add it to my "to do" list if things don't straighten up.

UPDATE

OK - back from the shop - filter and plug pulled. Plug is showing some rich running but not much, but still - to show it within 100 miles . . .. The filter was clean and you could easily see light through it a few hundred miles ago - strange, very strange.

When I talked with the service manager, he said that when they saw the filter they felt like that was the main cause of the problems. The service writer said that it was hooked up to the compute so I'm going to email the service manager and see if he says that too. I do have a 30 day warranty on labor so if I still have problems before Christmas I can take it back (and I will).

The service manager also said to get a K&N filter (should be here Tuesday locally) and if I have any popping problems to get a (are you ready for this) a Power Commander. I told him I had one and had it tuned but that it wasn't working for me so I pulled it off. He said that he could put it on if I wanted them too. He also said they cut/solder connections in to the TPS wire - so, if I do put it back on I'll do that.

Now, here are a couple of pics of the filter. The one with the hand in the pic is me holding it a few inches from 4 - 60 watt bulbs.

I'm not sure what he means by collapsed, so maybe you all can tell me.

I'm going to clean it again just for grins (like it's a big $$$ investment).

I will admit this, I do have some egg on my face. I peared down the intake tube in the airbox and gee, what I thought was a totally open area really isn't so there goes my major road trash theory. Oh well, live, learn, admit when you're wrong and get on with life.

 

[wanabeguru]

Are you using compressed air to clean filter? If so, that could weaken it. Perhaps email Suzuki with a complete description of problem, what you have found and tried to correct and what the dealership has found and "fixed" to correct the problem. Is there a specific Burgman forum you can go to for help? Good luck on getting your ride fixed! Kep us informed.

 

[happytech]

Are you using compressed air to clean filter? If so, that could weaken it. Perhaps email Suzuki with a complete description of problem, what you have found and tried to correct and what the dealership has found and "fixed" to correct the problem. Is there a specific Burgman forum you can go to for help? Good luck on getting your ride fixed! Kep us informed.

Write Suzuki - been there/done that - they don't respond (and you have to snail-mail - no email available).

As to the forum, believe me, they're getting their share at BurgmanUSA.

Since I've got a 30 day warranty on the work, I'll have a chance to see what happens over the next few weeks. If the plug starts acting up again it won't take long. I know what I'm looking for in a good plug so we'll see.

As the old cliche goes: Time will tell.

Oh yes, to answer the quesiton - no, no compressed air - just a good cleaning http://burgmanusa.com/bkb/400+b+Air+Filter+Maintenance

 

[Monkey Wrench Cycles]

I'll take a look at it tomorrow when I get it home.

All I know is, for some unknown reason, a lot of road dirt, small gravel, etc. kicks up on the swingarm assembly and a lot of dirt gets in the air filter.

Thats why it collapsed. If the filter gets so dirty it cant pull air effectively through it, the force of the suction will pull the center of the filter(weakest point) towards the suctioning force.

Just scrolled down and saw the pics of the filter. Its no wonder it ran like crap. That filter is one of the worst ive seen!!

 

[happytech]

Just scrolled down and saw the pics of the filter. Its no wonder it ran like crap. That filter is one of the worst ive seen!!

. . . and to think, it was just cleaned a few hundred miles ago. Maybe my cleaning technique is wrong - oh well, the K&N should arrive Tuesday.

They're a <bad word here> to install but can be done. For some reason, Suzuki decided to make it more challenging to install the air filter in these later models.

However, it will happen.

Frank, any other ideas how to tell if an injector is bad - Focus Frenzy was kind enough to make one suggestion?

Still, when they said collapsed, I figured the filter would be pulled down upon itself. This must be one tough little machine to keep going like this - drove fairly well on the way home - bucking nasty winds too.

 

[flb_78]

I would never clean a paper filter. Im not sure I'd trust a K&N filter in that dirty of an environment as K&N's let in more dirt than a paper filter.

I do believe that I would reroute the intake piping so that clean air drawn from either the top or the side.

 

[focus frenzy]

when it is running it is pulled down, notice how the pleates are bent and deformed? they should be nice and straight and even.
if it was made from the same stuff they make late model SV air filters from. it should be snow white, not charcoal black!

 

[Moekazi]

That looks like a bad filter. I wouldn't recommend washing a paper filter, but it can be done. The beef i have with the write up on the burgman site is that it shows the filter being sprayed off from the fresh air side and mentions rubbing in soap. This is very bad because it embeds dirt particles into the filter material. The filter looks cleaner when you're done, but it gets dirtier faster when you reuse it.

The other thing washing a paper filter does is weaken the filter material. A weakened filter that is dirty can collapse. It may sould like the peaks of the filter would crush straight down, but what happens is that they fold over and act like a shutter. Once folder over, the air has to travel through many more sheets of dirty filter, worsening the condition. Once the engine is off, the elasticity of the material lifts them back up somewhat masking the severity of what's occurred.

If you're going to continue to wash your filter, never touch the dirty side, always run your cleaner/water from the intake side to the outside, and only get it wet long enough to clean it. Submerging it in water and leaving it there will quickly shorten its life.

In regards to the fuel injector, typically i'd use a fuel pressure gauge. Start the scooter and then turn it off. Watch the gauge to see if the pressure drops. If you don't have a gauge, you can watch the injector for dripping fuel. After seeing the pics of what you're working with, it may be easier to pull the injector than to pull the intake.

 

[happytech]

Oh, I didn't think of the leak-down option - thanks!

I've got a fuel pressure gauge on my wish list.

I do know this, if I get a chance to take my trip next summer, I'm taking the K&N cleaning stuff and the spare paper just in case (OK- may take them) because I expect to be on some really bad (ash type road surface) roads.

 

[DaveC]

Well, the shop called this afternoon and said the reason for the sudden woes on my bike was a collapsed air filter.

I've never heard of that - I wouldn't think that this little 400cc thumper would have had that much power.

HISTORY: All of a sudden I was fouling out the plug within a few hundred miles and dumping fuel in to the crankcase. My mileage had cratered and my light throttle drivability was jerky at best. Changed the plug and oil/filter the other day. Took it to the shop last Tuesday and they called today saying that the collapsed air filter was causing all the problems.

PRESENT: So, what exactly is a collapsed air filter and what causes it? No matter how clean the air filter is, the way the air intake is (less than 12" from the road ad pointed down) this filter will start to get filthy within a week (less than 100 miles). Also, I replace the plug just before I took it in to the shop and it's already fouled.

So again, what exactly is a collapsed air filter and what causes it? I know most of you don't have any idea how the air intake system is routed on a Burgman 400, but if there's a way to add some hose, etc. to it and reroute it that should help a lot of my problems.

These paper filters can "unofficially" be cleaned several times over their lifetime and at over $50 a piece I can't be replacing one every six months. A K&N is a royal pain to install but I'm going to try one again.

I would have thought that if the filter was plugging that the O2 sensor would have compensated - maybe the software isn't sophisticated enough to do so.

I'll pick the bike up tomorrow and clean the filter again if I can - if not, then I can get by another day or so until the replacement comes in.

I'm also betting I can clean the plug (either the current one or the previous one) - if not, then another one can be bought up the street.

Now, if this doesn't fix the problem - any suggestions on how to handle it with the service department? I was hoping for my hour of diagnostics they would have done a bit more besides ride it a few minutes and hook up their scanner to it.

I can't seem to locate the miles on the scoot and miles on the filter. Are they the same? If I recall there has been a dry spell here bouts, lots of dust for everyone. Black is the wrong color for a filter. To clean a paper I normally tap it intake side to loosen and knock large particles then blow air from the carb side but not to close. Hold it up to a light and subjectively determine that there is light color still seen.

 

[happytech]

Mileage at time of shop visit - 11,256. I have cleaned, or so I thought, the filter before.

Oh well - if they didn't hook it up to the computer then I'm going to be really ticked for paying almost $90 for them to open the air box, look at the filter and tell me that's the cause of all my problems.

Time will tell.

 

[DaveC]

Mileage at time of shop visit - 11,256. I have cleaned, or so I thought, the filter before.

Oh well - if they didn't hook it up to the computer then I'm going to be really ticked for paying almost $90 for them to open the air box, look at the filter and tell me that's the cause of all my problems.

Time will tell.

We all pay for our education, one way or another. For 11k miles you sure are riding some dirty conditions. A previous poster recommended you relocate your snorkel away from the road surface. I have over 40K on my paper filter but my air intake is at seat level, rare is the dirt road. How ever the caliche parking lot at work is a heck hole. I idle through it and work at not stirring up the choking hazard that caliche is known for.

 

[wanabeguru]

Mileage at time of shop visit - 11,256. I have cleaned, or so I thought, the filter before.

Oh well - if they didn't hook it up to the computer then I'm going to be really ticked for paying almost $90 for them to open the air box, look at the filter and tell me that's the cause of all my problems.

Time will tell.

Hmmmmmmm, I see a refund in your future or a small claims court action good luck!

 

[DFW_Warrior]

11k miles and your filter looks like that after being "cleaned" several times? I clean mine every 20-30k miles and it doesn't look anywhere near that bad, and that's with triple the mileage and twice the volume of air passing through it.