Out in Big Bend what has always worked in the past was the ol' "how about breakfast every morning at (insert place here)" and then we figured it out over a plate of food. Simpler times I guess.
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Around the Bend Rally March 2nd to 5th 2023
- Thread starter Mextrekadv
- Start date
This is why I love that place so much. It really affects people 100% differently and that is awesome. For me, I would tell you the exact same thing but in the complete opposite order. I'd go ride Old Ore every day I'm down there, but I really only go back to TOTW if I'm going with someone that has never been before. I'm 100% not saying you are incorrect in your statement at all. I just love how for whatever reason, different things do it for different people. I like it!
Way before cell phones, that's exactly how we figured out our dive plans for the day. Meet at the on base cafeteria. Figure out where to go based on conditions. Stop for obento's (japanese box lunches) on the way. Do 2 shore dives, eat lunch, relax or snorkel until we could do the 3rd dive. Come home, lug my gear upstairs, rinse, hang to dry.Out in Big Bend what has always worked in the past was the ol' "how about breakfast every morning at (insert place here)" and then we figured it out over a plate of food. Simpler times I guess.
Yeah, those were the days.
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Man I miss those days when you could be unreachable and people didn't freak out about it unless you didn't come home at night
Now if you don't answer your phone or immediately respond to a text everyone goes nuts! 
_RG_
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First time I rode out there was on the ole klr. It was a drought year when talc pits on river road were just bizzaro. BigA used to have a pic of himself going through one for his avatar. Impressive. I was behind him when I spotted a bunch of folks up ahead gathered with cameras. (Generally portends impending mischief). And so it did. Think liquid dirt up to the pegs. There were several more. Nothing like riding sand. If that pit hadn't ended right where it did I was going down and gagging on a bushel of dust for weeks. Never saw it like that since.
Then there was black gap. The guy leading our group stopped before the gap and told us there was a three or four foot ledge dropoff. He was right. They filled that in since. And some steep/deep gullies on either side - waist and shoulders deep - with a loose hill climb right after. It was some rough tuff and real stuff. There were all sorts of opportunities for disaster and a couple of riders made use of them. I will to this day claim absolutely nothing more than blind luck got me through there. Honestly, if my front tire hadn't been favorably deflected by some random rock coming off the ledge I'd have wadded it up in grand fashion like nothing before nor since.
Old ore was wild. We ran it north to south and the rock fields just after turning in started claiming victims immediately. One of the crew had spent most of the year and untold bucks making a yamaha wr250 into a show bike. Trouble was he never really spent much time learning how to ride it. Lasted about 200 yards. Oh the carnage... blue plastics decorated the chihuahuan desert in all directions. Shook him up pretty good but no leakage involved. The kitty litter was deep and sudden in in every low spot along the way. Bikes dropping left, right and backwards. Folks were getting the front grabbed and dashing off the side into dagger plants and cactus. There was most certainly leakage involved. Several said something about cold beer and forget this nonsense and promptly turned around. It took us better part of the afternoon just making it down to the tunnel. Pretty sure we had some PTSD to deal with in that group. You'd see them at dinner sitting off to the side just staring into space flexing their fingers like clutch and brake.
Anyhow, that was all a long time ago. Good to see the younger crowd out stirring some dirt in the desert. Y'all enjoy!
Then there was black gap. The guy leading our group stopped before the gap and told us there was a three or four foot ledge dropoff. He was right. They filled that in since. And some steep/deep gullies on either side - waist and shoulders deep - with a loose hill climb right after. It was some rough tuff and real stuff. There were all sorts of opportunities for disaster and a couple of riders made use of them. I will to this day claim absolutely nothing more than blind luck got me through there. Honestly, if my front tire hadn't been favorably deflected by some random rock coming off the ledge I'd have wadded it up in grand fashion like nothing before nor since.
Old ore was wild. We ran it north to south and the rock fields just after turning in started claiming victims immediately. One of the crew had spent most of the year and untold bucks making a yamaha wr250 into a show bike. Trouble was he never really spent much time learning how to ride it. Lasted about 200 yards. Oh the carnage... blue plastics decorated the chihuahuan desert in all directions. Shook him up pretty good but no leakage involved. The kitty litter was deep and sudden in in every low spot along the way. Bikes dropping left, right and backwards. Folks were getting the front grabbed and dashing off the side into dagger plants and cactus. There was most certainly leakage involved. Several said something about cold beer and forget this nonsense and promptly turned around. It took us better part of the afternoon just making it down to the tunnel. Pretty sure we had some PTSD to deal with in that group. You'd see them at dinner sitting off to the side just staring into space flexing their fingers like clutch and brake.
Anyhow, that was all a long time ago. Good to see the younger crowd out stirring some dirt in the desert. Y'all enjoy!
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sandman
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Big Bend Ride Reports never get old .... at least I can identify with every rock and sand wash you are speaking of
Seriously funny ride report! And too true!!!
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I threw a rock the size of a 12x12 paver at Bwdmax while hauling the mail down Old Ore as the sun was coming up a few years ago.
Good times. I hope to do it again some day.
Good times. I hope to do it again some day.
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I remember that trip. That was the one where the left footpeg on my KLR disappeared somewhere on River Road and I had to finish the ride without it. Then later after we were all back home sharing pics and stories, someone posted up that they had found a KLR footpeg on River Road and wanted to know if it belonged to anyone. I claimed it and they shipped it back to me. I heli-coiled the threads on the mount and reinstalled it.
I know the exact picture of BigA that you are talking about. Richard Gibbens got the shot. It was great! I remember that silt, Black Gap, and Old Ore well. That was quite a while ago!
Welp, guess I might as well....
I've always rode down and back, this time I hauled all my camping gear to my usual spot, an airbnb campsite up the hill from Starlite and Milagro. I've camped at Peter's spot before, I was beyond annoyed by the dogs preventing anyone's sleep and peeing on my tent. The spot I'm at is dead quiet and pitch black at night, and in the morning, I wake up to a sunrise over the mountains.
Peter had called for a morning meeting at Chili Pepper Cafe, over in Study Butte, but I couldn't miss my morning burrito at Milagro. I headed over and caught the end of the rider meeting, just in time to be "volunteered" for leading the newbie group for the day. Ended up as 13 riders, all new faces to me except for Kike, who was lucky enough to sweep
Everything went pretty smoothly going up the east leg until we got to the final hill climb. I gave an initial warning that it's a very difficult climb, our group got stretched out enough that I ended up watching the chaos from the main viewpoint. Eventually, (I think) everyone made it up for the fantastic view.
Going back the west leg was treacherous, but through peer pressure and forceful encouragement, we made it back and out to pick a late lunch wherever. I have to give a shoutout to this group for being awesome to ride with, despite our different speeds, no one got lost and it seemed like everyone was having a blast.
End of that day, my usual riding buddy arrived in town and we schemed to explore some random roads next to Terlingua. I won't go into any detail here, but we found some interesting spots
Then it was time to bunker down for 30-50mph winds, allegedly gusts of 70 for the night. Milagro again in the morning, on to Chili Pepper to gather some riders from the day before, and then head off along Old Ore Road
I've heard a bunch of different reports through the years of Old Ore, so I had no idea what to expect. To be honest, maybe it's my progress over the years, but I didn't think it was a hard difficulty anywhere, but it was a decent difficulty the entire way through. (As opposed to River Road/Black Gap) My group of a T7, KLR650, AT, and mystery Husky dirtbike nailed it, although the KLR started having some fueling problems near the end of the route. One of my favorite roads even if it'll knock your teeth loose.
We stopped at Rio Grande Village; doing some math, we decided to skip the hot springs this time around so we could take a longer route, going south on East River Road, then north through Black Gap/Glenn Springs. Some of you may know I'm familiar with a certain section of Black Gap...
I was probably at 700 miles on the bike at that point, with maybe 10 being offroad when that happened. Now, I was at 26k, after grinding through Appalachia, Colorado, and Mexico it should have been a breeze. But the hill was especially nasty this year, worse than any picture I've seen of it. I chilled out at the bottom of the hill and watched several people on lighter yamaha's and ktm's struggle up the ledges.
Past Black Gap Rd was Glenn Springs, which is an easy road that has multiple "humps" in the road, which can work well as jumps, but only at about 50-60 mph. Making our way back to the gas station, we were exhausted and a bit broken. The gas pumps were rejecting my card for some reason and I noticed that my license plate was missing from my bike. This is where the smart people go "Oh, good thing I trailered down"....
With the KLR out of action, the two of us hatched a plan for the next day, while AT and husky guy ended up with Kike's group. I set out going backwards along Glenn Springs, going slow and checking at the bottom of every washout and landing zone of every jump. Lo and behold, off in a creek bed to the side of the road...
KLR guy and I decided to just hop around to the various hiking points that we had talked about the previous days, hitting Pyne Canyon and Burro pourover.
And with that, I prepared for the long day coming up. One more morning at Milagro and I was due back in Austin
I think this was my favorite Big Bend trip so far, as per usual I got to meet more people (and finally some that don't have kids my age
). And this time around I got to avoid West River Road. I think next time around I actually want to do more hiking, our group came across a couple canyon hikes along Old Ore that were too much to do in motocross boots
I've always rode down and back, this time I hauled all my camping gear to my usual spot, an airbnb campsite up the hill from Starlite and Milagro. I've camped at Peter's spot before, I was beyond annoyed by the dogs preventing anyone's sleep and peeing on my tent. The spot I'm at is dead quiet and pitch black at night, and in the morning, I wake up to a sunrise over the mountains.
Peter had called for a morning meeting at Chili Pepper Cafe, over in Study Butte, but I couldn't miss my morning burrito at Milagro. I headed over and caught the end of the rider meeting, just in time to be "volunteered" for leading the newbie group for the day. Ended up as 13 riders, all new faces to me except for Kike, who was lucky enough to sweep
Everything went pretty smoothly going up the east leg until we got to the final hill climb. I gave an initial warning that it's a very difficult climb, our group got stretched out enough that I ended up watching the chaos from the main viewpoint. Eventually, (I think) everyone made it up for the fantastic view.
Going back the west leg was treacherous, but through peer pressure and forceful encouragement, we made it back and out to pick a late lunch wherever. I have to give a shoutout to this group for being awesome to ride with, despite our different speeds, no one got lost and it seemed like everyone was having a blast.
End of that day, my usual riding buddy arrived in town and we schemed to explore some random roads next to Terlingua. I won't go into any detail here, but we found some interesting spots
Then it was time to bunker down for 30-50mph winds, allegedly gusts of 70 for the night. Milagro again in the morning, on to Chili Pepper to gather some riders from the day before, and then head off along Old Ore Road
I've heard a bunch of different reports through the years of Old Ore, so I had no idea what to expect. To be honest, maybe it's my progress over the years, but I didn't think it was a hard difficulty anywhere, but it was a decent difficulty the entire way through. (As opposed to River Road/Black Gap) My group of a T7, KLR650, AT, and mystery Husky dirtbike nailed it, although the KLR started having some fueling problems near the end of the route. One of my favorite roads even if it'll knock your teeth loose.
We stopped at Rio Grande Village; doing some math, we decided to skip the hot springs this time around so we could take a longer route, going south on East River Road, then north through Black Gap/Glenn Springs. Some of you may know I'm familiar with a certain section of Black Gap...
I was probably at 700 miles on the bike at that point, with maybe 10 being offroad when that happened. Now, I was at 26k, after grinding through Appalachia, Colorado, and Mexico it should have been a breeze. But the hill was especially nasty this year, worse than any picture I've seen of it. I chilled out at the bottom of the hill and watched several people on lighter yamaha's and ktm's struggle up the ledges.
Past Black Gap Rd was Glenn Springs, which is an easy road that has multiple "humps" in the road, which can work well as jumps, but only at about 50-60 mph. Making our way back to the gas station, we were exhausted and a bit broken. The gas pumps were rejecting my card for some reason and I noticed that my license plate was missing from my bike. This is where the smart people go "Oh, good thing I trailered down"....
With the KLR out of action, the two of us hatched a plan for the next day, while AT and husky guy ended up with Kike's group. I set out going backwards along Glenn Springs, going slow and checking at the bottom of every washout and landing zone of every jump. Lo and behold, off in a creek bed to the side of the road...
KLR guy and I decided to just hop around to the various hiking points that we had talked about the previous days, hitting Pyne Canyon and Burro pourover.
And with that, I prepared for the long day coming up. One more morning at Milagro and I was due back in Austin
I think this was my favorite Big Bend trip so far, as per usual I got to meet more people (and finally some that don't have kids my age
). And this time around I got to avoid West River Road. I think next time around I actually want to do more hiking, our group came across a couple canyon hikes along Old Ore that were too much to do in motocross bootsAttachments
Simmons1
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Great report. Thanks for taking the time to post this!Welp, guess I might as well....
View attachment 343432
I've always rode down and back, this time I hauled all my camping gear to my usual spot, an airbnb campsite up the hill from Starlite and Milagro. I've camped at Peter's spot before, I was beyond annoyed by the dogs preventing anyone's sleep and peeing on my tent. The spot I'm at is dead quiet and pitch black at night, and in the morning, I wake up to a sunrise over the mountains.
View attachment 343428
View attachment 343429
Peter had called for a morning meeting at Chili Pepper Cafe, over in Study Butte, but I couldn't miss my morning burrito at Milagro. I headed over and caught the end of the rider meeting, just in time to be "volunteered" for leading the newbie group for the day. Ended up as 13 riders, all new faces to me except for Kike, who was lucky enough to sweep
View attachment 343430
Everything went pretty smoothly going up the east leg until we got to the final hill climb. I gave an initial warning that it's a very difficult climb, our group got stretched out enough that I ended up watching the chaos from the main viewpoint. Eventually, (I think) everyone made it up for the fantastic view.
View attachment 343431
Going back the west leg was treacherous, but through peer pressure and forceful encouragement, we made it back and out to pick a late lunch wherever. I have to give a shoutout to this group for being awesome to ride with, despite our different speeds, no one got lost and it seemed like everyone was having a blast.
End of that day, my usual riding buddy arrived in town and we schemed to explore some random roads next to Terlingua. I won't go into any detail here, but we found some interesting spots
View attachment 343434
View attachment 343433
Then it was time to bunker down for 30-50mph winds, allegedly gusts of 70 for the night. Milagro again in the morning, on to Chili Pepper to gather some riders from the day before, and then head off along Old Ore Road
View attachment 343435
I've heard a bunch of different reports through the years of Old Ore, so I had no idea what to expect. To be honest, maybe it's my progress over the years, but I didn't think it was a hard difficulty anywhere, but it was a decent difficulty the entire way through. (As opposed to River Road/Black Gap) My group of a T7, KLR650, AT, and mystery Husky dirtbike nailed it, although the KLR started having some fueling problems near the end of the route. One of my favorite roads even if it'll knock your teeth loose.
View attachment 343436
View attachment 343437
We stopped at Rio Grande Village; doing some math, we decided to skip the hot springs this time around so we could take a longer route, going south on East River Road, then north through Black Gap/Glenn Springs. Some of you may know I'm familiar with a certain section of Black Gap...
View attachment 343438
I was probably at 700 miles on the bike at that point, with maybe 10 being offroad when that happened. Now, I was at 26k, after grinding through Appalachia, Colorado, and Mexico it should have been a breeze. But the hill was especially nasty this year, worse than any picture I've seen of it. I chilled out at the bottom of the hill and watched several people on lighter yamaha's and ktm's struggle up the ledges.
View attachment 343440
View attachment 343439
Past Black Gap Rd was Glenn Springs, which is an easy road that has multiple "humps" in the road, which can work well as jumps, but only at about 50-60 mph. Making our way back to the gas station, we were exhausted and a bit broken. The gas pumps were rejecting my card for some reason and I noticed that my license plate was missing from my bike. This is where the smart people go "Oh, good thing I trailered down"....
With the KLR out of action, the two of us hatched a plan for the next day, while AT and husky guy ended up with Kike's group. I set out going backwards along Glenn Springs, going slow and checking at the bottom of every washout and landing zone of every jump. Lo and behold, off in a creek bed to the side of the road...
View attachment 343441
KLR guy and I decided to just hop around to the various hiking points that we had talked about the previous days, hitting Pyne Canyon and Burro pourover.
View attachment 343444
View attachment 343443
View attachment 343442
View attachment 343445
And with that, I prepared for the long day coming up. One more morning at Milagro and I was due back in Austin
View attachment 343447
I think this was my favorite Big Bend trip so far, as per usual I got to meet more people (and finally some that don't have kids my age
NGL I kinda hated Old Ore. It was relentless and I crashed hard enough to reconsider my pace and to be thankful for my gear, but not enough to hurt myself or the bike…Which is sort of an ideal crash.
Also, I can’t wait to do it again.
I loved Black Gap & TOTW though.
Also, I can’t wait to do it again.
I loved Black Gap & TOTW though.
We had a faster pace on Old Ore, that's probably why you felt it. I agree with Marky Mark Old Ore is not very difficult but its very consistent and that makes it fun to me. I launched off so many ledges that dayNGL I kinda hated Old Ore. It was relentless and I crashed hard enough to reconsider my pace and to be thankful for my gear, but not enough to hurt myself or the bike…Which is sort of an ideal crash.
Also, I can’t wait to do it again.
I loved Black Gap & TOTW though.
.On Day one we stopped a lot and it was a slow pace, Day 2 on Black Gap and east River road was a decent pace but not bad. By Day 3 Tim and Kurt were very comfortable on that terrain that they were riding my *** so I started riding faster and you guys on the back felt the faster pace.
I didn't take a whole lot of pictures and I haven't check my cameras footage.
nevlec
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I was really bad at picture taking this trip. I slept in my van with earplugs on, so the dogs did not bother me, though they did make sure to use my tires for target practice. Turns out they are all pretty good shots. I’m headed back to the area next month sans bike with my wife for a hiking oriented trip. RR was rougher than usual, but really enjoyable ride, got to ride with a good group of folks some of whom I had not seen in many years dating back to my sport bike hooligan days with the TSBA. As we wrapped up RR I noticed my GPS was missing and went back to see, against all odds, if I could find it. Amazingly I did, camouflaged in a bunch of rocks.
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Thursday morning breakfast riders meeting, rode with marky mark (mm) group of 13. the group was moving along on down hill with a off camber right hand corner one of the guys went down pretty hard, not hurt but motorcycle was hard to start. we moved on to where the road splits, then MM let everyone know that it gets tougher from here on. some we’re going to wait but they changed their mind and tried it.
Once group gathered back up it seemed to flow a little faster with a couple climbs left everybody made it out with only a few parts hanging off
Hey I found my watch
Friday I hooked up with MM,KLR guy, African twin guy, this was my favorite day we rode pretty fast and it was blast then black gap the climb with a lot of people watching can’t crash now all in our group made with no worries KLR guy starting to have some bike worries ( just idle it up faster and go faster ) very cool under pressure
Marky telling us we had to go really fast through this section of road
didnt take a lot of pictures we rode 155 miles that day
Friday rode w Enrique it was a good ride we had a couple of guys from day one riding with us it was a laid back ride
Saturday night the greeter at the restaurant
Thanks Peter had a great time
and all the people I rode with, great meeting yall
Marky telling us we had to go really fast through this section of road
didnt take a lot of pictures we rode 155 miles that day
Friday rode w Enrique it was a good ride we had a couple of guys from day one riding with us it was a laid back ride
Saturday night the greeter at the restaurant
Thanks Peter had a great time
and all the people I rode with, great meeting yall
Nice riding with ya Cliff! Thanks for the pictures.
I wasn't able to get to town until late Saturday afternoon, and I did not register for the event because I was not sure if I would make it on time. The WA group sounded like a good idea but I thought $25 to join a group chat that utilizes a free service was kind of steep, especially since I was only going to use it for a day and a half. If there was some stickers thrown in that would have been suffice enough for me. Therefore, I didn't sign up and found it difficult to find people to ride with. I constantly checked on this thread for updates or people looking to ride, but it was dead the entire event.
Most of the time I was riding solo, but one day I rode down to Santa Elena Canyon 2up with my wife down Maverick Road. That was fun
.
My buddy Jay, hooked me up with a group of riders on Monday, and we had fun exploring the Ranch.
I had to split off from them to check on a leak at the trailer, but once it was fixed I decided to take the back roads into BIBE. It was a quiet and desolate ride, where I only passed a couple people in trucks here and there.
After completing the ranch road I'm mozied on over to Old Ore Road to see how long it would take me solo.
I stopped at the lookout point, of course, to snap a couple photos before pushing on.
The little hill climb right after this was fun, but the rocks do beat you up after a while. I was able to finish the trail north to south in about an hour and 15 mins. Not too bad for my second time on it with a big adventure bike. The only tip over was when I stopped to turn off my alarm
and lost my footing on the gravel 
.
After showing my wife and parents around the ghost town, including taking them to the starlight theater, showing them Clay Henry III, the beer drinking goat mayor of Lajitias, we checked out some trails with the Jeeps so my dad could earn his Badge of Honor for Black Gap.
Then we packed up the RV's and began the short 5-hour drive home. I'll probably try to stop by a couple more times this year to visit Jay and check out some Chisos Mountain hiking trails.
Most of the time I was riding solo, but one day I rode down to Santa Elena Canyon 2up with my wife down Maverick Road. That was fun
.My buddy Jay, hooked me up with a group of riders on Monday, and we had fun exploring the Ranch.
I had to split off from them to check on a leak at the trailer, but once it was fixed I decided to take the back roads into BIBE. It was a quiet and desolate ride, where I only passed a couple people in trucks here and there.
After completing the ranch road I'm mozied on over to Old Ore Road to see how long it would take me solo.
I stopped at the lookout point, of course, to snap a couple photos before pushing on.
The little hill climb right after this was fun, but the rocks do beat you up after a while. I was able to finish the trail north to south in about an hour and 15 mins. Not too bad for my second time on it with a big adventure bike. The only tip over was when I stopped to turn off my alarm
and lost my footing on the gravel .After showing my wife and parents around the ghost town, including taking them to the starlight theater, showing them Clay Henry III, the beer drinking goat mayor of Lajitias, we checked out some trails with the Jeeps so my dad could earn his Badge of Honor for Black Gap.
Then we packed up the RV's and began the short 5-hour drive home. I'll probably try to stop by a couple more times this year to visit Jay and check out some Chisos Mountain hiking trails.
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Simmons1
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Thank you for posting a great ride report!I wasn't able to get to town until late Saturday afternoon, and I did not register for the event because I was not sure if I would make it on time. The WA group sounded like a good idea but I thought $25 to join a group chat that utilizes a free service was kind of steep, especially since I was only going to use it for a day and a half. If there was some stickers thrown in that would have been suffice enough for me. Therefore, I didn't sign up and found it difficult to find people to ride with. I constantly checked on this thread for updates or people looking to ride, but it was dead the entire event.
Most of the time I was riding solo, but one day I rode down to Santa Elena Canyon 2up with my wife down Maverick Road. That was fun
View attachment 344677
My buddy Jay, hooked me up with a group of riders on Monday, and we had fun exploring the Ranch.
View attachment 344679
I had to split off from them to check on a leak at the trailer, but once it was fixed I decided to take the back roads into BIBE. It was a quiet and desolate ride, where I only passed a couple people in trucks here and there.
View attachment 344680
View attachment 344681
After completing the ranch road I'm mozied on over to Old Ore Road to see how long it would take me solo.
View attachment 344682
I stopped at the lookout point, of course, to snap a couple photos before pushing on.
View attachment 344683
The little hill climb right after this was fun, but the rocks do beat you up after a while. I was able to finish the trail north to south in about an hour and 15 mins. Not too bad for my second time on it with a big adventure bike. The only tip over was when I stopped to turn off my alarm
View attachment 344684
After showing my wife and parents around the ghost town, including taking them to the starlight theater, showing them Clay Henry III, the beer drinking goat mayor of Lajitias, we checked out some trails with the Jeeps so my dad could earn his Badge of Honor for Black Gap.
View attachment 344685
View attachment 344686
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Then we packed up the RV's and began the short 5-hour drive home. I'll probably try to stop by a couple more times this year to visit Jay and check out some Chisos Mountain hiking trails.
View attachment 344689
How was the Tuareg on Old Ore and other roads out there? How’s your ownership experience been? This bike checks a lot of boxes for me. Thanks
It is absolutely a great bike out in the west desert. I just rode 25 miles of sandy singletrack yesterday without any issues. My previous adventure bike was a Yamaha Tenere 700. I manage to put 8500 miles on it before I totalled it and myself in Sept 2021.
The tuareg has a lower seat, lower CG, better stock suspension, therefore it's a little nicer to ride off-road than the T7. The cruise control is a lifesaver too. As long as the engine lasts me 40k miles before major work, I'll be happy.
Thanks for sharing your positive experience! You have a unique perspective having owned both. I am 6' tall but have a 30" inseam, so the lower seat height & COG is an important factor. Thanks again!
No problem, if you have anymore questions just let me know. I also have a 30" inseam and had a Seat Concepts low seat on the Tenere 700. The Tuareg still feels lower, and I can back it into a parking spot without getting off. Something I can't do on most adventure bikes or dual sports.