I didn't say hire him to run the company, that's been his problem all along! Give him a good R&D budget and a talented crew & see what comes out.
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Some folks are best as the #2 guy. Erik looks like he fits that mould.
tshelfer
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Let's keep it theoretical. I'll stipulate that Buell himself is probably damaged goods, just due to two closures.
I still maintain the belief that HD could benefit by having a spinoff brand under which they could market bikes far away from their traditional market -- V-twins that purr like a VStrom, inline twins, adventure bikes, sport bikes, etc. By doing so, traditional HD fans don't feel their beloved is cheapening itself by building "kids' bikes", and the Japanese crowd won't be scared away because they wouldn't be seen dead with a Harley badge head.
I think it would actually give HD a lot of freedom to innovate under one marque while protecting their tradition under the other. Either way, the parent company takes home the profits.
I still maintain the belief that HD could benefit by having a spinoff brand under which they could market bikes far away from their traditional market -- V-twins that purr like a VStrom, inline twins, adventure bikes, sport bikes, etc. By doing so, traditional HD fans don't feel their beloved is cheapening itself by building "kids' bikes", and the Japanese crowd won't be scared away because they wouldn't be seen dead with a Harley badge head.
I think it would actually give HD a lot of freedom to innovate under one marque while protecting their tradition under the other. Either way, the parent company takes home the profits.
cheez
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If you look at the Sportster Forty-Eight and Seventy-Two lines that's what they're aiming at- the metal flake gel-coat paint jobs, etc. It's supposed to be throwback but 'authentic' and the hipsters love it.
Seventy-Two:
I still question hiring him for anything. What innovation did he come up with that has been embraced by mainstream manufacturers? I can't think of one.
His goofy large disk brake setup apparently isn't the answer to better braking with less unsprung weight, otherwise it'd be on Moto GP bikes.
The fuel in frame thing hasn't caught on like wildfire either.
What engineering innovation has he brought to the table that was truly innovative and widely adopted?
John Britten did a whole lot more with less money.
I think that'd be a tough decision for HD brass to decide to go that way. It might work, but that's way outside the box for that company.
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MotoTex
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But, Didn't Honda make the same bikes back in the mid-80's....????
People keep quoting that part of my post as if I am poo-pooing HD over it. I'm simply stating a fact that bears upon the question this thread encompasses. It wasn't meant as derisive, only as demonstrating their legacy.
Yes, Honda and every other manufacturer will get all they can out of a design too. But, this thread isn't about how Honda can gain a greater share of the youth market. Is it?
The point is that HD now seems interested in getting a wider market share among the youth. There are a number of things they could have done toward this goal, yet HD has either chosen not to, or, have done so half-heartedly and failed miserably, despite any developments made by their engineers.
Qualities such as reliability, performance, variety, and many aspects of most manufacturers current range of offerings are based upon a perspective toward the market that HD is well behind the curve on.
Yet, their image still sells, and it sells very well. That image is their foundation. Not the products coming off the assembly line.
This makes for a peculiar arrangement, unique among motorcycle manufacturers where their branded clothing, gear and fashion accessories (from sources outside the USA) are the greatest profit maker for "Assembled in the USA" HD.
Can any other manufacturer make this boast about their non-vehicular sales being the greater share?
When you make a comment like that I can't fathom what it is you attempted to add to this discussion. Was it rooted in some aspect of Harley Fandom that seems to be the very thing getting in the way of their gaining this younger market share?
The very youth who won't buy into the whole, "I want to be unique, just like all the other tattooed, HD fashion wearing people are" marketing strategy.
Now that nearly all who ride a Harley look pretty much alike, and, the overall visibility of this "lifestyle" culture has grown to a level of ridiculousness, it no longer appeals to those potential buyers who might prefer to actually be different.
This new demographic is made up of people who might better embrace the original mindset of those WWII airmen and want to actually break the mold rather than be another carbon-copy caricature.
Many of the current HD customers (with or without a bike) may see themselves as breaking away from society by buying and donning the current HD products and fashion accessories. But once this hits critical mass there is a tipping point where it becomes the norm, and being normal is unique.
Harley's electric bike is the most promising thing to come out of Milwaukee in a while. But I don't think it will ever sell as well with an HD marque on it as it could if given another brand name.
Harley-Edison?
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Your missing MY point... as cutting edge as H-D thinks they are by bringing out some "small" water-cooled bikes in 2014-15.... Honda had almost the SAME bikes that Harley is selling NOW, 30 years ago...
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Nice little response there. For a society bombarded by marketing it's interesting how few actually understand how it works and is applied. Which of course is what marketers want since, if we all saw through the chimera it wouldn't be effective anymore.
To wit; Beats headphones suck and anyone in my industry seen wearing a pair would have their professional credibility (and financial reasoning) questioned. Hasn't stopped them being the most successful headphone brand of all time because they're not selling headphones.
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MotoTex
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Your missing MY point... as cutting as H-D thinks they are by bringing out some "small" water-cooled bikes in 2014-15.... Honda had almost the SAME bikes that Harley is selling NOW, 30 years ago...
Well, then, in the words of immortal Emily Litella, "Oh? Never mind"
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Much can be said about Bose audio product.
If you got ninja marketing skills, you can sell ice to eskimos.
A lot of us hold almost the exact opposite opinion. I started riding the early 80's and roughly in the last 10yrs did they start making bikes I would remotely want to own. There was a fundamental paradigm shift in their product development philosophy - away from making LT's (Light Trucks) for a select few old farts. Who would've thought - 10yrs ago - that BMW would make a bike like the S1000RR? And the undisputed champion in the litresport segment - not to mention blockbuster sales success - it has become? Spawning already 2 variants, and no doubt more to come.
Right now, there are execs in Milwaukee scratching their collective heads trying to figure out how to pull off a brand transformation as profound as what BMW has done. I'm rather pessimistic, but I do hope they prove me wrong.
BMW as a company overall are actually very forward looking and are prepared to run parallel but disparate programs to ensure their place in transportation history. They have both fuel cell and electric vehicles in production and anticipating the future of car ownership (or lack thereof), have implemented their own Car Share programs in major cities including San Francisco. Yes, an automobile manufacturer cannibalizing their own sales today to ensure future survival.
Understanding the shifting demographics and costs (both financial & quality) entailed they are also actively retaining their older, retirement eligible workforce with flex hours and working conditions more conducive to senior production line workers.
Understanding the shifting demographics and costs (both financial & quality) entailed they are also actively retaining their older, retirement eligible workforce with flex hours and working conditions more conducive to senior production line workers.
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MotoTex
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There are other opinions.
From last year at Consumer Reports
"Consumer Reports has released its first ever study of motorcycle reliability, and students of its ratings on cars might notice a suspicious similarity - Japanese brands require fewer repairs than the leading American or German brands.
The study analyzed the reliability of 4,680 bikes owned by CR subscribers and found that Yamaha had the best ratings, with just one in ten bikes built between 2009 and 2012 requiring a repair over a four-year period. The makers of the R1 and R6 sport bikes were closely followed by Kawasaki and Honda, while one out of every four of the rumbling bikes from Harley-Davidson experienced an issue. BMW had the worst rating of the brands represented, with one in three bikes having problems."
Not that it has any real bearing on the discussion, but I believe Yamaha and Kawasaki could TECHNICALLY make that same claim. Musical instruments and industrial equipment/helicopters, respectively.
Simple, get a Triumph!
This is probably the best bet if they did it now. If they wait until the present generation of stereotypical HD customers, and maybe the generation after them, dies, maybe they can bust out the gates with an all new all HD branded line. I do believe marketing and perception has gone long way to pigeon hole HD as a cruiser company. And I believe they actually like it that way. They've made it that way as much as their customers have.
Then there were the AMF years. Modern HD is still saddled with a lot of bad rep from that debacle. People who didn't even own bikes then, but grew up hearing the horror stories-- that stuff stuck. We've all heard it. "All HDs leak oil. That's how they make their territory." "95% of all HDs are still on the road. All over the road. The other 5% broke down in the garage."
Euro bikes suffer the stigma, too. They saying is; Aprilla, BMW, Ducati, "making motorcycle mechanics out of motorcycle riders since 19XX."
But the Japanese bikes, the only besmirch I hear about them is that they're Japanese. "Rice burners." Ooooo. What a sick burn. And the thing about plastic. "Plastic maggot". So what? They work. People have grown used to and accept plastic now. We've seen what it can do, and acknowledge what it does well. "But HD still has real tins. Metal fenders." Okay. So? It's heavy, it rusts, the paint comes off and it gets dented. Plastic is a great material for motorcycle fenders and many other parts. It just helped me get 70 mpg. Yay, plastic!
All that said, who says HD needs or wants to build anything but cruiser style bikes? You can have a cruiser, a muscle cruiser, a touring cruiser or a trike cruiser. People love cruisers. I love cruisers. I just didn't want another one this time. If I did, there's a solid 33.3% chance it'd be an HD. It was going to be an HD 750 or 883. A Victory of some sort, just not the Vision. I don't want a bike that big, right now. Personal preference. Or the Indian Scout.
Honda won because I fell in, albeit apprehensive, love with the NC700X. And they made me an offer I couldn't refuse
The VStrom 650 and Versys were also top non cruiser choices.But who knows? Maybe I'll get an HD one day. Maybe I'll buy a thumper. Maybe a trike or a hack.
MotoTex
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A valid point.
However, the relationship is different. The popularity of the instruments, equipment, aircraft, etc. are not marketed based solely on the image of their motorcycle line.
My query would have been better phrased to include that relationship of Harley's motorcycles to their line of non-motorcycle merchandise derived from them.
From a marketing position, maybe start a new brand of bikes for the "others" out there that can't identify with the pirates.
I laugh every time somebody quotes CR as a credible reference.
These are the same folks who rate breakfast cereal by how much weight lab rats gain eating them. Problem with data compilers like CR are many. First, have you ever found a way to examine their raw data? Good freaking luck! For all we know, they are just throwing darts at red and black circles in the back room, eating pizza and drinking beer. Even if the data is legit, they rely on the Consumer's opinions, which is fraught with demographic problems:1. Objectiveness. A seasoned track day rider reviewing his Daytona 675R bought for CMRA racing vs. grieving mother filling out the report for his dead 19yr old on the Ninja 636 pasted on a hwy overpass at 119mph.
2. Qualification. A K1600GTL bought by a 52yr old male mech engineer for his 23rd bike vs. a Shadow 250cc bought by a 20yr old female finance major right after her M endorsement.
3. Dealership experience. Needs no explanation, as we all know EVERY dealership has equally qualified service dept. and treat their customers equally well.
So yes... your point well taken. I might start paying attention to CR's rankings...
when their toaster oven reviews are worth a darn.
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Agreed 100%. In this particular study I do know that mileage was taken into consideration however, that aside, the only available data was from dealers' reporting. So, from their report we could also conclude the following, contradictory data;
1) BMW has a longer warranty (3 years as opposed to HD's 2 years & Yamaha's 1 year) therefore more BMWs will be returned to the dealer over the 4 year period as opposed to many out of warranty HDs or Yamahas that will be taken to independent service shops (non reporting), fixed by the owner or had the problem ignored.
2) The BMW owner demographic is a more experienced rider than the HD and Yamaha owner. Therefore more BMWs (and the owners) survive to take advantage of the warranty. Crashed motorcycles don't get serviced.
I could go on but it's best put by Benjamin Disraeli "lies, **** lies and statistics."
MotoTex
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I laugh every time somebody quotes CR as a credible reference.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c[/ame]
This was what I turned up in a quick search and am open to reviewing other, more credible references with data to support BMW or Harley being at the pinnacle of all motorcycle brands in reliability and customer satisfaction. If such a thing can be determined more accurately.
The time-worn method of discrediting a source of data that doesn't match one's opinion is a common enough tactic. Is there anything in this particular data set CR presented that you found fault with?
As is true with any consumer's opinion. Including yours and mine. If there is data to support your opinion that is based on non-consumer sources that would be interesting to see as well.
Every manufacturer will have its cadre of fans who will wave the flag at the first sign of any ripple on the calm ocean of happiness, regardless of any data that might indicate otherwise.
I would go so far as to suggest that these two marques may have a higher percentage of brand loyalty than most others.
Whether that sense of loyalty is based entirely upon image (ego, feelings, etc.), or, upon measurable data, that is the question.
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I think we were discrediting this type of data in general and that was the basis of my argument, using the CR case as an example. I certainly have no personal horse in the game.
Neither have I. Of the 12 bikes I've bought in the past 4yrs or so, none were BMW or HD. I have, however, ridden enough different bikes and understand their nuances to have arrived at my own take on the relative merits and de-merits or the various brands. So I make my choices based solely on my own assessment. I do, however, enjoy reading what other like-minded riders say about their choice of motorcycles. As for questionable data and statistics? Meh.
As mentioned, I've sampled BMW's recent offerings and have been very impressed. I almost pulled the trigger on the K1300S on 2 occasions, and I still look forward to possibly owning one or the R1200RS/RT, if the opportunity presents itself.
HD OTOH, other than a passing interest in the Street Rod (VRSCR '06-07), has not raise my blood boiling temp 1 micro degree in 3 decades.
I consider this contrast remarkable, being that 10-15 yrs ago, I found both brands equally of no interest. I'm offer this perspective in reference to the topic at hand, in that HD would have to pull a miracle to get me - and a lot of riders like me - to bite.
As mentioned, I've sampled BMW's recent offerings and have been very impressed. I almost pulled the trigger on the K1300S on 2 occasions, and I still look forward to possibly owning one or the R1200RS/RT, if the opportunity presents itself.
HD OTOH, other than a passing interest in the Street Rod (VRSCR '06-07), has not raise my blood boiling temp 1 micro degree in 3 decades.
I consider this contrast remarkable, being that 10-15 yrs ago, I found both brands equally of no interest. I'm offer this perspective in reference to the topic at hand, in that HD would have to pull a miracle to get me - and a lot of riders like me - to bite.