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Triumph Speed 400 and Scrambler 400 X

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Windmill said:
I think a lot of KTM 390 and Royal Enfield single buyers will be checking them out. I like the red one but they got the insignia on the tank crocked.
Will they be in the USSA in January 2024?
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I currently own a 21 KTM 390 Adventure and you can say I am certainly intrigued with what I see.
 
gore-tx said:
While I acknowledge that Triumph is more premium than Honda, if they price their Scrambler at the same price or higher than the Honda's people may not be as inclined to putting their money down for the little Triumph.
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I think you might be surprised. Some people (like me...) really prefer much of the authenticity and specific styling of the Triumph modern classics vs. a much more modern design like your SCL500. I actually think the SCL500 compares a lot more with the Triumph Trident 660, and the price difference is more readily justified by the bigger displacement, higher-performance package of the Triumph. Honda doesn't really make a motorcycle that competes with the Triumph modern classics since they discontinued the CB1100. For example, I was actually kind of interested in a CB1100, and I have very little interest in a Trident 660.

FWIW I think the Triumph Scrambler 1200 XE actually comes very close to veering too far from the classic formula and blurs the line a bit vs. ordinary ADV bikes. The Scrambler 400X clearly sticks to the old formula.

Take all this as intended, from a guy with a closet full of Triumph t-shirts.
 
"Now taking deposits on Triumph’s latest machines, the 400 series at https://ironsupply.com/!!" Ask for Ed!

2AAD1B84-1CCA-4EE5-AF68-33BA832F6E22.jpeg
 
mr72 said:
I think you might be surprised. Some people (like me...) really prefer much of the authenticity and specific styling of the Triumph modern classics vs. a much more modern design like your SCL500. I actually think the SCL500 compares a lot more with the Triumph Trident 660, and the price difference is more readily justified by the bigger displacement, higher-performance package of the Triumph. Honda doesn't really make a motorcycle that competes with the Triumph modern classics since they discontinued the CB1100. For example, I was actually kind of interested in a CB1100, and I have very little interest in a Trident 660.

FWIW I think the Triumph Scrambler 1200 XE actually comes very close to veering too far from the classic formula and blurs the line a bit vs. ordinary ADV bikes. The Scrambler 400X clearly sticks to the old formula.

Take all this as intended, from a guy with a closet full of Triumph t-shirts.
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They are not as classic looking as you might think... Take a look at the tank: it leans forward. The size of the wheels, the shape of the rear headlight. And those are the visual cues. The engine is very modern, 6 speed transmission. Classic would be the new BSA. Engine is based on the old rotax engine found in the F650, it has a 5 speed transmission and an 18" wheel on the front.

Kawasaki needs to make a Z400RS and Yamaha needs to make an XSR300
 
gore-tx said:
They are not as classic looking as you might think... ... Classic would be the new BSA.
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Oh, classic design is not the same thing as antiquated technology. The Triumph is just not in the same category as the Honda in terms of actual functional classic design. This is why I compared the Honda with the Triumph Trident, which is for all intents and purposes an ordinary modern motorcycle, but with cosmetic and ergonomic treatment to make it look and feel more "classic". That's different than beginning with a classic design in the chassis where form follows function. I admit, Triumph has taken a lot of steps in the wrong direction in recent years, but they are still at least making an effort to hold the line.

There's a difference in my mind between beginning with a classic design as the starting point and modernizing it where required for regulations vs starting with a modern design and trying to make it look cosmetically classic without really changing the fundamental engineering choices. I know we probably disagree on this, but that's why some people will buy the Honda and others will choose the Triumph even at a higher price.
 
Ground clearance unknown as well as the price. One thing I don't like is it is a high river and gets max hp at the top. I like a thumper where a tachometer is useless. The BSA gets its max hp and torque at half the hp Triumph. Actually I like the 500 CL better than the Triumph, so far.
 
woodsguy said:
"Now taking deposits on Triumph’s latest machines, the 400 series at https://ironsupply.com/!!" Ask for Ed!

View attachment 353255
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I called Ed seemed really nice. The deposit is 500.)0 and he said when they come in I can choose between the speed and scrambler. He said they are expected to be under 6000 bucks (yeah right) He said the deposit is refundable if I change my mind (yeah right) He said they already have several deposits. He also said he doesn't see BSA comming to America because of no dealer network. They expect them this fall but I bet it is January. If he will write contract where I can gey my money back if I die of old age before I get the bike I may put a deposit down. Heck back when I was crazy I spent 500 the bars in one night. It was decades ago.
If I order it will be the scram because of seat height switchable ABS and 19 on the front, and longer suspension 6", exactly half of what the bike I have has. At my age long travel suspension is a mute point.
The genuine artificial fake dual muffler does nothing for me. Get that off as soon as an aftermarket pipe pops up. :thumbd:
 
gore-tx said:
They are not as classic looking as you might think... Take a look at the tank: it leans forward. The size of the wheels, the shape of the rear headlight. And those are the visual cues. The engine is very modern, 6 speed transmission. Classic would be the new BSA. Engine is based on the old rotax engine found in the F650, it has a 5 speed transmission and an 18" wheel on the front.

Kawasaki needs to make a Z400RS and Yamaha needs to make an XSR300
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I think the bike looks fine. It's the weight that's the problem for me. A scrambler should be able to scramble a little bit. :D It's a single cylinder bike that should weigh less IMO. My '17 Kawasaki Z650 (non-ABS) weighs 403 wet. A Z400 weighs about 360 wet. The new, hideously ugly Honda 500 scrambler weighs 423. If I buy a 400cc single cylinder bike classified as a scrambler, I want it to be relatively light and nimble...and especially when it only has 40 HP. Sorry...classic looks and nostalgia only go so far for me.
 
TNC said:
I think the bike looks fine. It's the weight that's the problem for me. A scrambler should be able to scramble a little bit. :D It's a single cylinder bike that should weigh less IMO. My '17 Kawasaki Z650 (non-ABS) weighs 403 wet. A Z400 weighs about 360 wet. The new, hideously ugly Honda 500 scrambler weighs 423. If I buy a 400cc single cylinder bike classified as a scrambler, I want it to be relatively light and nimble...and especially when it only has 40 HP. Sorry...classic looks and nostalgia only go so far for me.
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You sound like the typical adv rider: if it’d have 20 HP more and weighed 50 pounds less… :lol2:
 
mr72 said:
Oh, classic design is not the same thing as antiquated technology. The Triumph is just not in the same category as the Honda in terms of actual functional classic design. This is why I compared the Honda with the Triumph Trident, which is for all intents and purposes an ordinary modern motorcycle, but with cosmetic and ergonomic treatment to make it look and feel more "classic". That's different than beginning with a classic design in the chassis where form follows function. I admit, Triumph has taken a lot of steps in the wrong direction in recent years, but they are still at least making an effort to hold the line.

There's a difference in my mind between beginning with a classic design as the starting point and modernizing it where required for regulations vs starting with a modern design and trying to make it look cosmetically classic without really changing the fundamental engineering choices. I know we probably disagree on this, but that's why some people will buy the Honda and others will choose the Triumph even at a higher price.
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I don't disagree at all. I do think most Americans associate power figures with price. How many high spec small bikes do we get? A lot of people look at raw performance first. What's the horsepower? How fast will it go? Think KTM 690 SMC R. Top of the line but when you look at the price, you know you can get something "better" for that kind of money. Whatever pricing these little Triumphs will be matters.

Some people have already made the comparison with RE bikes. They're heavy, underpowered but they're cheap. My SLC500 weighs 24 pounds more than the Scrambler 400 X but also makes 7 more HP. It's a 500 too.

Anyway, I can't wait to see these bikes in the flesh and throw my leg over them. I think Triumph has done awesome.
 
Call me definitely intrigued. My KTM 390 Adventure seat height is 855mm which is a bit too tall and both these models are lower. If the engine vibrates a little less (recently rode a Himalayan and noticed it was smoother but a lot less power), I may have to trade. Of course, I will most likely wait to see what Royal Enfield brings to the market with their new 450.
 
I've bought from him another dealership. Never even been to this store. Was a straight shooter for me.
 
gore-tx said:
You sound like the typical adv rider: if it’d have 20 HP more and weighed 50 pounds less… :lol2:
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LOL!...probably not. Hey, I thought everyone lusted after more power and lighter weight. The stuff dreams are made of. :lol2:

But back in the real world I'm riding a KLX300 that even decently modded may only get about 24 HP. I ride a Z650 which is a fun bike but no barn burner. And I ride an XR650L which speaks for itself. However, the one thing I like about all three is that they are decently light for their class. What! you say on the XR? I did mention in their class and only 17 pounds heavier than a KTM690.

But honestly for me, I do appreciate bikes that make some effort to keep their weight down in their class which is why this Honda scrambler weighing 20 pounds more than my Z650 kind of puts me off. A neat little single cylinder 400cc scrambler ought to be a little lighter on its feet IMO.

And hold on there gore-tx...don't the typical ADV riders ride KTM's and BMW's?:D

Oh, wait a minute for a quick edit: Anyone check out the passenger footpegs on this bike in person. I was looking at the one on the floor at the shop I used to work at part time. It looked like the passenger might need to be a contortionist to sit back there. And I say that from a perspective of not caring about accommodating passengers anymore. The distance from the pegs to the rear passenger part of the saddle seemed ridiculously close.
 
TNC said:
LOL!...probably not. Hey, I thought everyone lusted after more power and lighter weight. The stuff dreams are made of. :lol2:

But back in the real world I'm riding a KLX300 that even decently modded may only get about 24 HP. I ride a Z650 which is a fun bike but no barn burner. And I ride an XR650L which speaks for itself. However, the one thing I like about all three is that they are decently light for their class. What! you say on the XR? I did mention in their class and only 17 pounds heavier than a KTM690.

But honestly for me, I do appreciate bikes that make some effort to keep their weight down in their class which is why this Honda scrambler weighing 20 pounds more than my Z650 kind of puts me off. A neat little single cylinder 400cc scrambler ought to be a little lighter on its feet IMO.

And hold on there gore-tx...don't the typical ADV riders ride KTM's and BMW's?:D

Oh, wait a minute for a quick edit: Anyone check out the passenger footpegs on this bike in person. I was looking at the one on the floor at the shop I used to work at part time. It looked like the passenger might need to be a contortionist to sit back there. And I say that from a perspective of not caring about accommodating passengers anymore. The distance from the pegs to the rear passenger part of the saddle seemed ridiculously close.
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How'd you see the bike since it's not released?
 
TNC said:
LOL!...probably not. Hey, I thought everyone lusted after more power and lighter weight. The stuff dreams are made of. :lol2:

But back in the real world I'm riding a KLX300 that even decently modded may only get about 24 HP. I ride a Z650 which is a fun bike but no barn burner. And I ride an XR650L which speaks for itself. However, the one thing I like about all three is that they are decently light for their class. What! you say on the XR? I did mention in their class and only 17 pounds heavier than a KTM690.

But honestly for me, I do appreciate bikes that make some effort to keep their weight down in their class which is why this Honda scrambler weighing 20 pounds more than my Z650 kind of puts me off. A neat little single cylinder 400cc scrambler ought to be a little lighter on its feet IMO.

And hold on there gore-tx...don't the typical ADV riders ride KTM's and BMW's?:D

Oh, wait a minute for a quick edit: Anyone check out the passenger footpegs on this bike in person. I was looking at the one on the floor at the shop I used to work at part time. It looked like the passenger might need to be a contortionist to sit back there. And I say that from a perspective of not caring about accommodating passengers anymore. The distance from the pegs to the rear passenger part of the saddle seemed ridiculously close.
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The 400 I wager could could shed I bet 20 pounds and look good too with a new exhaust. System. Most bikes can. I need to shed about 30 to but the exhaust is ok.
I changed out my RE 500 and it was so heavy it had a cat in it but it was still a dog.
 
woodsguy said:
How'd you see the bike since it's not released?
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Whoa!...you're right. I'm on another thread about the Honda 500 Scrambler, and was referring to that bike on the footpegs. I got scrambled on the scramblers...LOL! My edit was in reference to the Honda 500 Scrambler. The rest of the post is about the Triumph. And I wasn't drinking when I got scrambled...honest. :lol2:
 
Windmill said:
it was so heavy it had a cat in it but it was still a dog.
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LOL! You can take out the cat, but it's still a dog!

My notes from when I swapped the exhaust on my Bonneville was that I knocked off under 7 lb. 7 lb with a 10 hp improvement to boot is nothing to sneeze at. For weight reduction, I also swapped on an alloy handlebar, swapped the rear shocks, removed the carbon canister and the air injection and every other thing I could find that didn't offer any measurable value in reliability or function, for probably for another 5-10 lb total weight reduction on the Bonnie. So that's a total weight loss without making functional changes of about 15-20 lb. My Scrambler is in similar condition, still a work in progress.

I'm sure with a similar kind of approach you could knock 15-20 lb off of one of those Triumph 400s. But getting more than 20 lb weight reduction is going to be difficult, expensive, and most likely involve functional changes you probably don't like, such as removing, or often cutting off, parts you actually would like to keep on there because they're useful.

Triumphs are expensive bikes to work on. Parts and accessories are all among the most expensive on the market. You can take off unnecessary stuff and maybe save 5 lb without paying a cent for it. But other than that, my math says it'll likely cost you about $100 for every lb you want to remove. Maybe your $600 aftermarket exhaust that reduces 6 lb is worth it since it comes with a performance increase above just the weight, and looks better. But after that, it starts to feel pretty expensive, especially on a brand new motorcycle that cost under $8K to start. If you don't mind voiding the warranty and venting fuel vapor into the air then 15 lb is probably on tap for the cost of the new exhaust. Then after that another 20-30 lb might be available at $100/lb. and some loss of function. Removing more than 45 lb total is going to require intense surgery, like fabricating a whole new chassis from aluminum or swapping the wheels for some handcrafted forged alloy track wheels that'll bend if you give them a harsh look.
 
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